Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 48

Thread: Believers... you can't have it both ways.

  1. #1
    Atheist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    117
    Thanks
    286
    Thanked 677 Times in 116 Posts

    Believers... you can't have it both ways.

    See my username; enough said.

    I have a friend that is very concerned about my lack of belief/faith/worship. We talk a lot and our conversations do not turn sour; we are good friends. She recently brought up the topic again, and our conversation went like this:

    Me: "Is God omnipotent (all powerful)?"
    She: "Yes."
    Me: "Is God omniscient (all knowing)?"
    She: "Yes."
    Me: "So, God knows about children being molested and raped, and he could stop it, but he doesn't. Such a deity is not worthy of my worship."

    My friend just rolled her eyes as if I were being ridiculous. (I honestly don't understand why). A short while later she came back and we had this exchange:

    She: "Should you be held accountable for what your (adult) children do?"
    Me: "No, of course not."
    She: "Well there you go."
    Me: "Are you saying that God should not be held accountable for what man does?"
    She: "That's right."
    Me: "The is a huge difference here. #1, I never claimed to be omnipotent or omniscient. #2, If I knew that my (adult) children were molesting kids, and I had the ability to stop them or at least report them, then I absolutely should be held accountable, and I should be punished for doing nothing."

    I got a shoulder shrug...


    You can't have omnipotence, omniscience, and benevolence.

    Thank you for reading.

  2. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to Atheist For This Useful Post:

    + Show/Hide list of the thanked


  3. #2
    jumping on eggshells sp88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    2,414
    Thanks
    23,441
    Thanked 12,874 Times in 2,414 Posts
    i'm an atheist myself but, just for fun, i'll roll up as devil's advocate ...

    your 1st example kind of misses the point of faith surely?
    all the paths are laid out and it's up to each person to follow the path they want to, but only following a particular path wins the prize
    "be nice to people and say you think i'm pretty great every sunday, and i'll let you into heaven", says god, "do the opposite and it's a one way ticket down excrement creak"

    but the opposite path has to be available

    faith requires the presence and participation of moral evil, or sin, or whatever you want to call it, to enable the righteous or reclaimed to trundle off up to heaven while the bad people have to sit on the fiery naughty step of satan
    you can argue, from that, that god requires us to sin, which makes god slightly less than the cosmic cliff richard we all know and love

    it strikes me the counter-argument would be to have god pulling all the strings and making everyone nice, and bang goes the power to choose

    which leads nicely to your 2nd example ...

    i guess it comes down to how much freedom of expression you'd actually want to have - would you want to be a robot that's incapable of doing wrong, but also incapable of appreciating the rewards because they'd be there for all and nobody would know anything different?

    that'll do for a starting point anyhoo - my poor, intoxicated, saturday night brain needs a rest now

    and remember, believers and atheists are just 2 sides of the same coin - on one side, the odds are 99/1 - on the other, the odds are 1/99

  4. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to sp88 For This Useful Post:

    + Show/Hide list of the thanked


  5. #3
    I'm Damaged mudpie316's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    316
    Thanks
    2,244
    Thanked 1,723 Times in 313 Posts
    "Should you be held accountable for what your (adult) children do?"

    funny that, when in most cases of 'insanity' profiling, parents are usually the deep down cause of it all.

  6. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to mudpie316 For This Useful Post:

    + Show/Hide list of the thanked


  7. #4
    Super Moderator Misrule's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    8,366
    Thanks
    17,924
    Thanked 249,826 Times in 8,359 Posts
    The most important decision you ever make - choosing your parents. And so many kids seem to make a complete mess of it

  8. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Misrule For This Useful Post:

    + Show/Hide list of the thanked


  9. #5
    I'm Damaged mudpie316's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    316
    Thanks
    2,244
    Thanked 1,723 Times in 313 Posts

  10. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to mudpie316 For This Useful Post:


  11. #6
    Atheist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    117
    Thanks
    286
    Thanked 677 Times in 116 Posts
    @sp88 - Thank you for your reply, but I must admit that I am missing your point. Sorry.

    Faith - I have no room for faith in regards to this definition: belief that is not based on proof or evidence.
    I see no redeeming qualities in that kind of faith. It leads to active ignorance in my opinion.

    Confidence, trust, and truth are synonyms of faith, I prefer those words.

    With regards to freedom of expression, are you referring to free will?

    @mudpie316 - I have never heard that upbringing or parenting is a (typical) source of insanity, can you give me something to read on the subject please? (The shorter the better!)

  12. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Atheist For This Useful Post:


  13. #7
    Fucking With The Fuckwits Jaguar7777's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,640
    Thanks
    11,140
    Thanked 9,310 Times in 1,645 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by mudpie316 View Post
    "Should you be held accountable for what your (adult) children do?"

    funny that, when in most cases of 'insanity' profiling, parents are usually the deep down cause of it all.
    Thank you for that, Mud. Deep down I knew it was my Fathers fault. He should have kept his advice to himself, although the thrashings were probably deserved.

    Mind you, my Mother was a Saint. She's probably proof enough of an almighty.

    Jag. (Wasn't the Bible written by Men? Well, there you have it ........ )
    You Know Absolutely Nothing, So Kindly Keep It To Yourself.


  14. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Jaguar7777 For This Useful Post:


  15. #8
    Super Moderator Misrule's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    8,366
    Thanks
    17,924
    Thanked 249,826 Times in 8,359 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Atheist View Post

    Faith - I have no room for faith in regards to this definition: belief that is not based on proof or evidence.
    I see no redeeming qualities in that kind of faith. It leads to active ignorance in my opinion.

    Confidence, trust, and truth are synonyms of faith, I prefer those words.
    All areas of knowledge rely on axioms - assumptions that are self-evident within the area of knowledge. Geometry has them, mathematics has them and so does every other paradigm. But these axioms cannot be proved from within the paradigm, they are assumed i.e. accepted as a matter of belief. Religion is similar. The key axiom is that there is supreme being (the details vary widely) and all religion is then based on that. For an outsider who does not accept the axiom (atheists like me), proof and disproof are not possible. Conversation can even become difficult.

    BTW, who said the omnipotent, omniscient deities had to be nice or good? A very intrusive deity could micro-manage every detail of everything. But there would then be no free will. But if a deity were to adopt a "hands-off" approach...?

    I'm not sure I agree with sp88 on evil. Faith doesn't require a moral evil. Good implies its antithesis. Even the word "moral" is meaningless without "immoral". These are not facets of faith, but of logic.

  16. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Misrule For This Useful Post:


  17. #9
    jumping on eggshells sp88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    2,414
    Thanks
    23,441
    Thanked 12,874 Times in 2,414 Posts
    @ atheist - forget the word "faith", it only means having that belief in god and jeebus and flying monkeys (probably)

    the point being that the notional god has to allow bad things to happen in order for christianity to work
    so #1 god would know about bad things happening and doesn't intervene, which is necessary for the christian dynamic to work, and #2 god could not be held accountable for the actions of his creations if the christian dynamic is also to work

    it just struck me that your christian friend's logic, in the two conversations you gave, wasn't flawed in as far as a flawed religion goes because choice and free will have an awfully big say in the system of christianity

    your last line about not being able to have omnipotence, omniscience and benevolence is absolutely bang on
    i'm just not sure christianity has ever claimed benevolence, partisan or otherwise - it strikes me that's just misdirection, never part of the deal

    it's an extremely flawed religious experience and i can't believe so many people still fall for it

    edit: @ misrule - i should perhaps have phrased it that the potential for moral evil has to be present for the christian faith to work - i didn't mean to suggest that christianity requires active evil, just that it has to exist as the elephant in the room - in all honesty, some other system of faith might not give any nod to good or evil at all
    Last edited by sp88; 10-22-2013 at 03:39 AM. Reason: extra waffle

  18. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to sp88 For This Useful Post:


  19. #10
    Dork Lord of the Sith DarthTater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Up your ass.
    Posts
    1,713
    Thanks
    4,728
    Thanked 8,789 Times in 1,687 Posts
    My main issue with Christianity as a religion is that all humans are born with an original sin and must be redeemed. This is more about leverage over the individual by those claiming to have the power to redeem. It doesn't matter if the person has been good their whole lives, they are still guilty of that original sin and can be denied redemption unless they do as they are told. Classic cult type manipulation.

    Another is their obsession with the end of the world. Christianity is a Dooms Day Cult. If the future of the planet is already decided and it's going to end, so why bother creating, building or planning for the future? If they are so sure that Armageddon is going to happen in their lifetimes, then why are fundamentalists so worried about who's going to win the next election?

    Now all religions have their issues, but Christianity seems to be the one most suited for the mentally unstable. Their holy book is itself has a split personality, old testament vs new, angry vicious god/kind loving god. This gives it's followers the delusion that they can have two sets of rules. One for themselves and another for everyone else.
    ---------------------------------------------
    "There's a darkness upon me that's flooded in light.
    In the fine print they tell me what's wrong from what's right.
    It comes in Black and it comes in White and I'm frightened
    by those who don't see it."

  20. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to DarthTater For This Useful Post:

    + Show/Hide list of the thanked


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •